God's punishes?

[isaiah53]

Whats the difference?

I think that there is a big difference.  The difference being that is there  consequences for actions or is there a god that is vengeful and angry that is driven to punishment?  Is God reactive to our actions by punishing, or is he active in a way that he wants to redeem us?  I guess I see the idea of punish in terms of condemning.   I think we need to perhaps discuss motive.

I personally do not see God as a punishing god.  I think that when I sin, consequences come, but I do not think it is God dishing out the punishment because of his anger or because I am owed a beating per say.   I can perhaps say God may send me lessons to correct my life, and those lessons may be painful, but never intended to punish but rather to correct and redeem.  I do not think that God withholds blessings as a punishment either.  I feel that he may send corrective measures our way (some may be painful) so that we can be capable to receiving blessings that we may not have been ready to have. 

The proof for me is in the gospels where we are told that Jesus is like the Father in all things.   If Jesus is like the Father and the Father punishes one for sin, then we would have to say that we would see Jesus do the same thing in his encounters with sinners because he is like the Father.   However, we do not see this.   We see a compassionate Jesus who forgives, lifts, and heals despite ones sins.  Therefore we can say since they are a like, that the Father behaves the same way when he encounters sin.   Remember as Elder Holland said, one of Christ missions here on earth was to reveal the Father to us.  So we must look at Jesus' actions revealing the character, of the Father.

i think when he withdraws his spirit he is punishing us

I do not think God withdrawals his spirit.   I do not think that is scriptural.   The term for the comforter used by John in the Greek is paraklete meaning ones public defender.   In other words John is saying that the Spirit is your public defender one who will stand before the judgment bar of Christ and defend you.  How can he defend you if he leaves you in times of sin?  That is his job according to John.   Besides when do we really need a comforter?  At times of sin and weakness in our lives.   Why would the comforter leave when we need him the most? It is not logical nor scriptural.
now with that said,  I think that we ourselves can turn from his Spirit, and not listen, but this does not mean that spirit is not available at such times in our lives if we soften our hearts and listen.   So I do not see this as a punishment but rather a gift of Mercy.

we always are harder on ourselves than Heavenly father is on us

I cannot speak for everyone's personal experiences, but from my experiences with God, he is a very merciful Father, and his mercy is deeper then I can comprehend.   He is also very kind, loving and patient, not a demanding and jealous God.  I find that his mercy and forgiveness even astonishes me, so I do not like to put limits on an infinite being.

[Suzie_Su]

yes he does of course he does its all through the scriptures when people disobey G-d doesnt seem to have an issue to give them a wake up call.

[EAG]

The proof for me is in the gospels where we are told that Jesus is like the Father in all things.   If Jesus is like the Father and the Father punishes one for sin, then we would have to say that we would see Jesus do the same thing in his encounters with sinners because he is like the Father.   However, we do not see this.   We see a compassionate Jesus who forgives, lifts, and heals despite ones sins.  Therefore we can say since they are a like, that the Father behaves the same way when he encounters sin.   Remember as Elder Holland said, one of Christ missions here on earth was to reveal the Father to us.  So we must look at Jesus' actions revealing the character, of the Father.

what do you make of Christ's fit at the site of sin in the temple?

[isaiah53]

what do you make of Christ's fit at the site of sin in the temple?/quote]

I do not think that this was a vengeful God displaying wrath and punishment. It was a demonstration of his disapproval of the sacred violent system that the Jewish temple was.  His attach on the money changers is showing his defiance of the idea of a vengeful God. The very thing you are arguing for.

[EAG]

i dont see how attacking the money changers shows disapproval of a vengeful punishing god, could you explain this?

[isaiah53]

I do not think that I have the space to go into this deeply. We would have to talk about atonement theory to get into this deep.  But in a nutshell the Jewish temple was a sacrificial system that dealt with the appeasing the vengeful wrath of God through blood sacrifice. Christ by throwing out the money changers was attaching this system of substitutionary violence. He was condemning the sacrificial structure which created a vengeful god who only looked upon the ritual pure and clean.
Remember at the end of Mark when Christ is crucified the temple veil is torn, and behind it was nothing. This is saying that the God of the old testament who was suppose to be separated from sin and the world, who demanded blood for sin, we not there.  The Holy of Holies was empty, the whole sacrificial system was empty.  In fact that very God was on the cross dead, telling us that he himself would rather die then to see revenge and violence to another. He himself had become a victim to their sacrificial violent god.
Just because Jesus drives out the money changers does not mean he used violence, or wanted to punish them. He was destroying the old system (the new wine in old bottles) so that he can bring about a new and everlasting gospel.

[tragula]

I personally do not see God as a punishing god. . . .
I do not think God withdrawals his spirit.   I do not think that is scriptural.   

He most certainly is a "punishing" God, if we refuse to repent.

"15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
  "16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
  "17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
  "18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
  "19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
  "20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit."  D&C 19:15-20)

It seems clear that God most certainly can be a "punishing" God.  Unless we repent of our sins, He will "smite" us by His "wrath" and His "anger."  And He, Himself, says that He "withdrew [His] Spirit."  Yes, He is forgiving but only if we repent.  He is also a just God, and as such, He cannot allow justice to rob mercy, or else He would cease to be God (Alma 42:25).