Blacks and the Priesthood

[tragula]

"1. Could you please provide a source for that? Elijah served as a Seventy until his death.

"2. Are you saying that these three apostles or others also visited Walker Lewis (who also was ordained in the Priesthood at the time of Joseph) William Mc Cary, Enoch Abel (son of Elijah Abel) and Elijah Abel (grandson of Elijah Abel, ordained as far as 1935) and told them the same thing?

"Darion Gray, a prominent black lds members who works very closely with lds leaders said:"

1.  Yes, but I was wrong--it was Cincinatti and not St. Louis, and it was four apostles, not three.  Newell G. Bringhurst, "Elijah Abel and the Changing Status of Blacks within Mormonism," in Lester E. Bush, Jr., and Armand L. Mauss, eds., Neither White nor Black:  Mormon Scholars Confront the Race Issue in a Universal Church," Signature Books:  Midvale, UT., 1984, pp. 130-131.

2.  Did you see where I said that?  No?  Then, I am not saying that, although it is a possibility.  I know of no evidence of that.  Members of the Church who doubt the inspiration of the early Church leaders with respect to this issue habitually overlook a few things:  1.) "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."  (D&C 6:28)  Both Zebedee Coltrin and Abraham O. Smoot, who were contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph Smith, quote him as saying that the negroes were not to have the priesthood "at this time."  Not one single person ever quotes him as ever saying anything other than that on the subject.  2.)  All of the scriptures that I quoted in my original post.  3.)  The incident with the four apostles mentioned in my original post.  3.)  The fact that the priesthood ban fits a pattern found in the scriptures, as clearly described in my original post.  4.)  The fact that OD 2 clearly states that "the long-awaited time has finally come," which clearly implies that there was a set time for the blacks to get the priesthood, and that time did not arrive until 1978, thus vindicating all the previous Prophets who said that the time had not yet arrived.

3.  I quote scriptures, and you quote Dorian Gray and Jeffrey Holland?  Was either one of them ever President of the Church, because the last I heard, there is only one man on earth who has the authority to pronounce doctrine for the Church, and that is the Prophet.  Therefore, anything that they say is only their own opinion and not official Church doctrine.  I, on the other hand, quoted scripture, which is official Church doctrine, and not folklore!  According to the scriptures, it is an absolutely undeniable fact that, with regard to who could and could not hold the priesthood, the Lord has discriminated on the basis of lineage in the past.  So, if He discriminated on the basis of lineage in the past, why do members of the Church automatically assume that if a Prophet discriminates on the basis of lineage, then that Prophet is not inspired of the Lord?

[Happy_LDS]

I am having a hard time understanding your views Tragula. If you are one of those who believe in the inspiration of our Church leaders who at the present time have stated they do not know why the blacks did not receive the priesthood until 1978, why is that you think otherwise? I am curious because for one side, you claim to believe in inspiration but the other hand you are disregarding the "we don't know" statements.

Also, personally I have a very hard (generally speaking in lds history) believing second and third hand accounts. So far, I haven't seen any quote from Joseph Smith himself where he bans blacks from Priesthood but quite the opposite on his actions.

About Darius and Holland, no they are not the Prophet and even if they were they would share their own perspective of things. I don't believe the Prophet is infallible and everything he speaks is doctrinal. Again, unless you can provide a quote by JS that states the ban then I don't believe it.

[tragula]

I am having a hard time understanding your views Tragula. If you are one of those who believe in the inspiration of our Church leaders who at the present time have stated they do not know why the blacks did not receive the priesthood until 1978, why is that you think otherwise? I am curious because for one side, you claim to believe in inspiration but the other hand you are disregarding the "we don't know" statements.

I believe that the Brethren were inspired not to give the Priesthood to the blacks until 1978.  I believe that it was the will of the Lord that they not receive the Priesthood until that time.  It fits with the books of Moses and Abraham and with the overall pattern that we see in the scriptures of gradual expansion of access to the Priesthood over thousands of years.  But do we know why the Lord chose to do it that way?  No.  As far as I know, nobody knows.

Also, personally I have a very hard (generally speaking in lds history) believing second and third hand accounts.

I did not give you any third hand accounts, so that is a red herring.  Most of what we have from the Prophet Joseph Smith is second hand accounts.  Joseph was very much aware of his lack of education and hated to write anything himself, which is why he usually made use of scribes to do his writing for him.  If you read The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, most of it is second hand accounts written by people who heard him say this, that, or the other thing.  The statement that "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves," is an example of a second hand statement from the Prophet Joseph Smith that is often quoted in the Church.  If we limited ourselves to first hands accounts of Joseph's own, personal writings, then we would have very little of Joseph's actual teachings.

So far, I haven't seen any quote from Joseph Smith himself where he bans blacks from Priesthood but quite the opposite on his actions.

No, but what I have given you is quotes from the Prophet Joseph Smith saying that the descendants of Cain were black and that Enoch preached to all the inhabitants of the earth except the blacks.  So, if he didn't preach to them, how could he give them the priesthood?  I have also given you quotes from the Prophet Joseph Smith saying that Pharaoh belonged to that lineage that was cursed pertaining to the priesthood, a lineage that the book of Moses told us was black.  If there was racism in the Church, then the seeds of that racism were obviously planted by the Prophet Joseph Smith, himself.

There may be evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ordained one black man to the priesthood.  What is never addressed is the following questions:  1.)  Was that before he received the revelation, referred to by both Zebedee Coltrin and Abraham O. Smoot, to the effect that blacks were not supposed to receive the priesthood at that time?  2.)  Was that an exception to the general rule?  Exceptions do not disprove the existence of a general rule.  For example, the general rule was "thou shalt not kill."  The Lord made an exception to that rule when He told Nephi to slay Laban.  Thus, the ordination of Elijah Abel could be an exception to the general rule.  Those who doubt the inspiration of our early Church leaders never show how Elijah Abel's ordination could not be explained as an exception to the general rule or as coming before Joseph received the revelation on the blacks that was mentioned by both Zebedee Coltrin and Abraham O. Smoot.

Nor do they explain the following scripture:  "and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."  (D&C 6: 28)  It wasn't just two or three prophets and apostles who said that blacks could not hold the priesthood but all of them.  They all agreed!  I do not believe that the general authorities are infallible, but when they all agree on something, then it seems unlikely that they are all making the same mistake or that they are all being deceived by Satan.  I think that when they all agree on something that it is more likely that they are all inspired by the Lord, just as they were on June 1, 1978.  I cannot understand how supposedly good, active members of the Church can think that they are right and that all previous General Authorities were wrong.  That seems like the very height of arrogance to me.  It is amazing to me that you refuse to even consider the possibility that maybe all the General Authorities were right, both with respect to the priesthood ban itself, as well as to the revelation given on June 1, 1978.  What's wrong with that explanation?  Oh, you don't think that the Lord would discriminate like that?  Guess what!  The scriptures that I have quoted prove that He did!

About Darius and Holland, no they are not the Prophet and even if they were they would share their own perspective of things. I don't believe the Prophet is infallible and everything he speaks is doctrinal. Again, unless you can provide a quote by JS that states the ban then I don't believe it.

As I say, I don't believe that the Prophet is infallible either, but as I said, we are not talking about just one prophet here.  We are talking about every prophet from Brigham Young to Harold B. Lee.  They all agreed!  Not one of them disagreed!  Are you saying that they were all deceived by Satan?  Are you saying that the Lord allowed so many people to be discriminated against when all He had to do was to tell his Prophet to give them the priesthood?  None of this makes any sense.  But I'll tell you what does make sense.  What makes sense is that the Lord's discrimination against blacks that is explicitly revealed in both the books of Moses and Abraham was continued until 1978.  If not, then where is the evidence that the Lord changed His mind prior to 1978?  The fact that Joseph ordained one black man to the priesthood?  That's it?  That's your evidence?  So, one prophet, Joseph Smith, was right, and nine other prophets were all wrong?  And you call that logical?  Remember, "in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."  (D&C 6:28)  Joseph Smith is one witness against nine on the other side.  You are ignoring the word of the Lord.

Unless you can give me a quote from the Prophet Joseph Smith saying that all black men were entitled to the priesthood, then I will not believe it.  I see the hand of the Lord in both the priesthood ban and in the revelation of June 1, 1978.  I don't think that the Brethren are infallible, but I think that they are closer to the Spirit of the Lord than you are.

[Happy_LDS]

There may be evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ordained one black man to the priesthood.... Thus, the ordination of Elijah Abel could be an exception to the general rule. 

Why do you keep saying ONE? There were several as stated in this thread (read previous posts).

I cannot understand how supposedly good, active members of the Church can think that they are right and that all previous General Authorities were wrong. 

Dramatics aside, it has nothing to do with being right or wrong. It's about having a brain and think outside the box rather than to just believe whatever is dish out to you.We have a mind and we have the Spirit and whether or not we will know the answer for this in this life, there is absolutely nothing wrong with considering all angles.

 

That seems like the very height of arrogance to me.

your opinion.

 

It is amazing to me that you refuse to even consider the possibility that maybe all the General Authorities were right, both with respect to the priesthood ban itself, as well as to the revelation given on June 1, 1978. 

What are you so amazed about? I never said I did not consider the possibility of them being right, however as stated before it is not convincing to ME, it is okay if it is convincing to YOU.

Unless you can give me a quote from the Prophet Joseph Smith saying that all black men were entitled to the priesthood, then I will not believe it.  I see the hand of the Lord in both the priesthood ban and in the revelation of June 1, 1978.  I don't think that the Brethren are infallible, but I think that they are closer to the Spirit of the Lord than you are.

You mean than WE are or are you a General Authority?

Anyhow, it seems like you feel quite passionate about this topic. My view is simple. Having read the accounts from all angles, including the perception about blacks back then (including quotes from early leaders) then it seems to me that this was nothing but a mistake of men. I will stick to this opinion until I see something significant that changes my mind about it.

[tragula]

Why do you keep saying ONE? There were several as stated in this thread (read previous posts).

I read every post, and if there is any evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ever ordained any blacks other than Elijah Abel, I didn't see it on any of those posts.

Dramatics aside, it has nothing to do with being right or wrong. It's about having a brain and think outside the box rather than to just believe whatever is dish out to you.We have a mind and we have the Spirit and whether or not we will know the answer for this in this life, there is absolutely nothing wrong with considering all angles.

Saying that using one's brain has nothing to do with being right or wrong is a very strange statement, indeed.

I encourage everyone to consider all angles, including the possibility that ten prophets of God may actually have been inspired of the Lord, especially since there is very clear proof in the scriptures that the Lord did, indeed, discriminate on the basis of lineage in the past, which naturally raises the question, why would He not discriminate in our day?

your opinion.

Yes, but I doubt that I am alone in that opinion.  I suspect that most members of the Church would also consider it rather arrogant to think that you are right while all the General Authorities are wrong.  Oh, it's not about being right or wrong, is it.  I forgot.  But that is essentially what you are saying--that all the Prophets who denied the blacks the priesthood were wrong.
 

What are you so amazed about? I never said I did not consider the possibility of them being right, however as stated before it is not convincing to ME, it is okay if it is convincing to YOU.

So, you did consider the possibility that ten prophets might possibly have been right, and then concluded that they were all wrong together, while you, alone, were right.  Is that about the size of it?

Anyhow, it seems like you feel quite passionate about this topic.

I am passionate about truth, the Church, and the gospel.

My view is simple. Having read the accounts from all angles, including the perception about blacks back then (including quotes from early leaders) then it seems to me that this was nothing but a mistake of men.

I will stick to this opinion until I see something significant that changes my mind about it.

Let me ask you a few questions--do you accept the evidence from the scriptures that the Lord discriminated on the basis of lineage in the past?  If so, then why is it so inconceivable that He might discriminate on the basis of lineage in our own day?  If you don't believe that prophets are infallible, is it possible that ten prophets of God were all right and that the Prophet Joseph Smith was the one who was wrong?

[MisterD]

Even President Holland in the pbs show admitted a lot of folklore involved in the whole issue. The church will never admit racism feelings however I think when they asked Pres. Hinckley if the racist view on blacks and the priesthood stopped he said yes without clarifying that they were never racist in the first place.